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Mark Manson about the phenomenon of his best seller “The Subtle Art Of How To Not Give A F**k.”




SHOW#: CM1047





COACH MIKE BAYER: Welcome back to “Always Evolving” with me, Coach Mike. And my guest today, I would say he redefined an all new category in self-help really. It’s true. I mean he’s written books that have the best titles and have really good material. His name’s Mark Manson. You, maybe, heard of his book, “The Subtle Art of Not Giving A F*uck” or “Everything’s F*ucked: A Book About Hope”. He’s been in the writing game a long time. Thanks for joining me Mark. 

MARK MANSON: Good to be here. 

MIKE: To put things in perspective for everyone, and everyone has seen that orange book that has hung out and been in every, probably, dorm room and table and in executive will even put it in their office to try to send a message, you know, to people who walk in the room. Did you ever think it would end up being this big?

MARK: No. I (CHUCKLES) I always tell people, like, if you think your book’s gonna be this big, you’re probably an asshole. 


MARK: Because, it’s um, you know it (STAMMER) when I describe it to people who aren't familiar with publishing, like it-- it’s like kinda like the “Avengers” of publish-- like you don’t-- there’s no way to expect that. You know you-- it’s maybe in your wildest dreams it happens, but um, you certainly don’t go into it.

MIKE: Yeah, like how many (STAMMER) of subtle art, how many millions have you sold?

MARK: Uh, it's over 12 million now.

MIKE: Over 12 million books. And that-- does that include audio, or that’s just books?

MIKE: Uh, that includes audio. Um it’s in over sixty languages now. I think it was number one in thirteen different countries or something. We just sold the Uzbek rights, let’s just put it that way. (LAUGHTER) It’s gonna be published in Uzbekistan…

MIKE: Wow!

MARK: month, so (LAUGHTER). 

MIKE: And so, like, this is a game-- that was a game changer for you?

MARK: Yeah. It’s [a] complete life change.

MIKE: And it really, in my opinion like I said, after your book suddenly everyone was coming out with F*uck and shit books everywhere. Were you kind of one of the first books saying that?

MARK: Uh, I actually think-- I think there was one before me, but yeah it was-- within a year there was a whole shelf of them in the airport. (LAUGHTER)

MIKE: There was. Were you annoyed at all when you see all these books come out right af-- during that period?

MARK: Yeah a little bit, but you know it’s um-- you know they say, “Imitation is the highest form of flattery”?

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: Um, but it-- it was funny because it’s-- it’s uh-- you know (STAMMER) for a while there I would get the criticism of like, “Oh you just sold a lot of books ‘cause you had “F*uck” in the title.” And-- and the eventually my response to that was like, “No, no, no it’s not the F*uck in-- on the cover that sells the books, it’s the Mark Manson (LAUGHTER) on the cover that sells the books.”  Just like as like a slapback (STAMMER) in people’s faces. But um, yeah I mean there was a-- there were a lot of imitations for the-- about a year or two afterwards.

MIKE: Did you have in your mind that this was gonna be in the self-help category?

MARK: Yeah. Yeah it was targeted-- you know it’s funny Mike, I uh--it was very consciously targeted the way it was. And-- and I wrote a book proposal kind of explaining how I wanted to write a self-help book for millennials. I wanted to write a self-help book for people who hate self-help, they think it’s all bullshit.


MARK: Um and I want-- I wanna try to kind of redefine the category. Now keep in mind I’m writing this book like it’s basically a sales pitch and so (STAMMER) I’m only kind of half believing what I’m writing. You know I’m like, alright I’m gonna hype this up a little bit, get some editor somewhere excited about it. (STAMMER) that is really what ended up happening and it even caught me by surprise. I’m like oh wait (LAUGHTER) this actually happens. (LAUGHTER)

MIKE: Yeah it’s I (STAMMER) it’s so awesome it happened. I love it whenever um, something disrupts or breaks through. You know everyone um-- (STAMMER) and you seem to have a very, um-- a point of view that’s fairly unshakable, right? Uh in terms of like your messaging and how you put it-- I also think you’re-- I mean um, you’re brilliant at titles. Like even with uh, “Everything’s F*cked: A Book About Hope”, like you could make a fortune just coming up with titles. You’re really good.

MARK: (LAUGHTER) Thanks man. Yeah, I mean who knows maybe that’s a backup career. 

MIKE: No, that’s like-- that’s like, mega career. I’m like all these-- Apple, everyone will be hiring you. They’d be like, “Come out with a name for our next product.”


MIKE: And the product’s gotta be solid, right? But it’s…


MIKE:'s more than a title. So in terms of your point of view and being in self-help and kind of why do you think so many people have been attracted to you? What do you think you’re saying that people really need to hear?

MARK: Well I-- I think-- I feel like the self-help industry, particularly I’d say the 80s, 90s and early aughts. You know it was-- like when I was growing up and I was reading the self-help books and watching the seminars and everything. Everything was about, you know, positive thinking, believing in yourself, um you know manifesting your reality, law of attraction, all-- all those sorts of things. And you know there is a lot of value in that stuff, but I-- you know like a cynical millennial that I am, you know by the time I hit 30, I started feeling like you know this is all a bunch of bullshit, you know like the world kinda sucks. Um you know the-- even if you work really, really hard sometimes things don’t work out for you, um and (STAMMER) you have to live-- you have to find a way to live with that and it, it’s-- sometimes things do get worse and it-- and that’s-- you have accept that.


MARK: You (INAUDIBLE). And  so I felt like there was very much a need in the industry for there to kind of be a correction, like a negativity correction on all-- kinda like the fufu positivity stuff. And that-- that was initially my goal. I actually started, you know, started doing it with my blog in 2012/2013 and-- and that really became popular and, and it was just-- it was clear that there was this-- a very large audience of people out there, particularly younger people who wanted to improve themselves, wanting to improve their lives, but they weren’t really buying into the same-- the same trops…


MARK: ...from 20 years before. 

MIKE: I was hand picked by Dr. Phil. I had no intention of being on television. Two years ago I met him, he asked me to go on an episode. Two days later I’m on an episode, now I’m like on all the time, done 40 of ‘em.

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: He’s like, “You need to write a book.” Like before I, I worked with artists and creatives and like I didn’t-- I remember J-Lo posted a photo of me and I didn’t even have instagram back then. Like I didn’t think about it. It wasn’t even, like-- well now I’m like, oh man I would’ve like optically been so big or whatever. But um-- but I’m (STAMMER) newly introduced kinda to this, I would say, coaching self-help space, right. I found the coaching world to be a little bit like, uh what is it, best in show, the movie with dogs. 

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: ...where there’s all these characters in it and it’s almost like-- like I come from the background where if somebody’s struggling with something, you don’t try to (STAMMER) score a package deal for them to pay you. You’re like, do they need-- what kind of therapists do they need or doctor? Like it’s-- it’s not a financially driven thing that we’re trained.

MARK: Sure.

MIKE: And I found in the coaching world, it’s almost-- it’s very interesting because a lot of it is about that, be happy or make more money. We’re gonna take you there. Power of positivity. You’re, you know like there’s this conversation that exists.

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: And it seems like you’re really outside of that, right?

MARK: Yeah, I, I’m-- I openly encourage people to question that.

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: You know, if you were sitting around thinking, “Man if I could just make more money, I’ll be happy.” That assumption itself is the problem. You know, you don’t need some $4,000 seminar to go tell you how to make a bunch of money like, that’s not going to make you happy dude. It’s the (STAMMER) assumption itself that is the problem. Ah, and so it’s, it’s really about just it’s questioning a lot of those assumptions and, and asking yourself, it’s like, why do I feel like I need to have more money? Why do I even feel like I need to be happier?


MARK: You know why can’t I be bummed out for a while, you know? And there something hard going on in my life, it’s normal to be bummed out when something hard is going on in my life. You know I think that there’s just a lot of these implicit unspoken assumptions that go along with kind of the typical self-help stuff and it really started to bother me so I try to poke holes in it.

MIKE: What bothered you the most?

MARK: Well what-- what you said, you-- you alluded to it briefly in what you were saying was I-- the more I learned so early on when I (STAMMER) started developing an audience I was like, “Oh shit, I need to like actually know what I’m talking about.” So I, (LAUGHTER) I started you know at this point I spent many, many years like actually researching and reading papers, and studies, and psychology books, and all those stuff. And um, and understanding kind of where my— the boundary of my expertise ends. (INAUDIBLE)

MIKE: Yeah where your art— where your art form lives and breathes and what’s appropriate and not.

MARK: Totally ‘cause it’s…

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: …it’s the-- the same way where it’s like you know I don’t know, if you have like a brain hemorrhage you don’t go to a nutritionist.

MIKE: Right.

MARK: Go to a brain doctor, right? So It’s like, if somebody has like severe schizophrenia like, I’m not your guy. (CHUCKLES) You need to go to a psychiatrist, right?

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: It’s like we don’t have that same kind of hierarchy of expertise in the-- this personal development self-help world, you know? So it’s you know people with legitimate mental health problems are getting pitched on m-- spending their life savings on a seminar and given by somebody who has absolute no mental health training whatsoever and um, and to me that’s just a huge ethical problem period with the…


MARK: …industry. And so it-- it is getting better um, I do-- I think-- particularly with like coaching certifications and stuff like that like it is, there’s (STAMMER) more I guess credentialism that’s starting to happen um, but it’s—to me that’s—that is a uh, openly problematic thing about the industry and something that I’m very outspoken about.

MIKE: Yeah, I wrote (STAMMER) a treatment uh, and I’ll, I’ll email it to you. It’s short and it’s based upon uh, inspired by my life and it’s about ah, someone in the coaching industry and coming across all these different coaches and what happens, so I’ll send it over to you. I’ll be curious of what you think.


MIKE: You’ll proly-- you’ll probably uh, get kind of what it is ‘cause that-- and I guess that’s really what it’s about, right? It’s like when things bother you or you wanna say something.


MIKE: …and you feel uh-- and this is across anything really, it’s like how do you turn that frustration into inspiration or how do you turn that annoyance into um, doing something that’s creative?

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: Right? Because otherwise we sit on it and it sucks after a while its like, “I’m annoyed, I’m annoyed.” And after…


MIKE: …a while it just (CHUCKLES) starts to eat at you so like, where are you at in terms of like what you’re creating now?

MARK: You know like it’s really interesting because—

MIKE: And by the way your hair is amazing.

MARK: Oh thank—

MIKE: Like I know this is a podcast you guys, but if you watch…


MIKE: …on Instagram or Facebook his hair like, I wish I had that hair.

MARK: (LAUGHTER) You know what’s funny man, I uh, I originally-- you know so the pandemic started and my hair salon closed down and so I couldn’t get a haircut for like six months. And uh-- and then the hair started growing out and, and it turns out I got this like luscious curly hair thing going.


MARK: And my wife is like, “What the hell? Where did this come from?” She’s like, “You are not cutting it. You are letting it grow.” (LAUGHTER) So I’m like, I’m just along for the ride, um--

MIKE: Did you even put anything in it today?

MARK: No dude, I, I mean-- I literally just--

MIKE: It’s like ah, what (STAMMER) are those weeds that uh-- that tum-- it’s like a beautiful tumble weed on your head.


MIKE: It’s like it’s amazing, I love it.


MIKE: I have to get a haircut every like five days and if I don’t get a haircut every five days I look like father time. Like I just start…


MIKE: …wasting away. You just let it go and it’s, it’s amazing!

MARK: A beautiful tumble weed, that that is one of the best compliments [that] I’ve gotten…


MARK: …in a long time. (INAUDIBLE)

MIKE: Good, so creatively…


MIKE: …what are you currently working on?

MARK: (LAUGHTER) Um, you know it-- that’s an interesting question ‘cause it’s, it’s the massive success of the books is (STAMMER) actually complicated that for a while, like I there was definitely a little bit of, “Holy crap I just sold ten million books. What am I—“, like anything I do now is gonna feel like         paltry in comparison or whatever so, these days I’m-- I’m actually-- I'm-- I’ve been really-- in terms of just my like what’s inspiring me…


MARK: …at the moment um, I’m-- I’m like getting into a lot of philosophy um, I don’t know if it’s the craziness of 2020 uh, but it’s-- I found myself kind of going back to like you know stuff you know you’re supposed to read in college but you know I was too busy partying to actually read it--

MIKE: Like-- like Descartes and like all that-- you’re going--

MARK: Yeah! Like I got into Nietzsche last year and then you know this year um, I’ve been reading like a lot of like the-- about existentialism and things like that and I’m just really digging it. And so, you know I’ve always kind of seen my role like what I do is, I take a lot of very complex psychological and philosophical ideas and I kind of like translate down or into like consumable bites for people and so that-- that’s kind of what’s driving me these days and I, I don’t really know where it’s gonna take me but it’s um, I’m having a lot of fun with it.

MIKE: So it’s basically your-- you’re studying philosophy and having fun with philosophy but you’re um-- like I saw a while back you were like writing with Will Smith…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …or go-- and did that come to life or?

MARK: Yeah, so-- weird thing with publishing timelines so, I-- the book is already written. Um, so I’m-- I'm-- Will Smith and I are co-writing his (STAMMER) memoir and I spent much of 2018 and early 2019 with him uh, just kind of like traveling around with him…

MIKE: Mm hm.

MARK: …being a fly on the wall. Talking to him a lot about his life and meeting his family, and his team, and everything ah, to build a book out it. And so I actually finished up the draft on that this summer.

MIKE: God that’s so different than what you’ve done too.

MARK: It is, but it isn’t. You know--


MARK: I-- I thought it was kind of strange-- when they reached out, I thought it was kinda-- I was like, "Well this is odd.” But then once I got to know him I-- I’m like, “Oh, it actually makes sense.” Like he-- he’s very uh, you know one of the first things he told me is, he said, “I don’t want this to just be like an autobiography.” He said, “ I want there--  I don’t just want to write my life. I want somebody who can like pull the lessons and like things that kind of define who I am and, and put that on the page.” Um, so it’s-- I kind of describe it as like 2/3 memoir and like 1/3 like life lessons from Will Smith.


MARK: And um, and he is an incredibly impressive person so it’s-- it was really a joy to just kind of like pick his brain per months at a time and--

MIKE: Did you (STAMMER) put a lot of pressure on yourself? Were you like, “Oh well.”

MARK: It was weird at first, um, I mean it definitely took a few months to kind of get over the like, “Oh my God, I’m sitting in a room with Will Smith and he’s like telling me about his childhood.” Like that’s--

MIKE: Yeah but you’re the Will Smith of like writing and self-help like--

MARK: I guess so, right?

MIKE: Like, like to be honest, I mean respectfully, Will Smith can’t sell as many books as you in self-help.


MIKE: So you sell a lot more than him but yes, in his lane…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …he’s massive.

MARK: Well and it’s-- there’s (STAMMER) a weird thing too where I think where you grow up with somebody like there-- it's-- I lost my virginity watching Men in Black. Like that--


MARK: True story and (STAMMER) it’s like he was such a formative person for my generation in the 90’s.

MIKE: He really gave you that encouragement during the movie.


MARK: Yeah. I told him. When I told him that I was like, yeah man, you know Tommy Lee Jones, right?

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: The girl was just getting all hot and bothered. (LAUGHTER) Um, but yeah, I mean it’s-- so there was a little bit of like a surreal you know I can’t, (STAMMER) believe this is happening (INAUDIBLE) type of thing, but it interestingly it’s like after that um, it was kind of the opposite. It was like very little pressure. Um, part of it’s just he’s great, he’s like-- I mean he is who he is for a reason so he’s a very intuitive understanding of how to work with people. How to give you space, how to like not put pressure on you to kind of get the best out of you. Um.


MARK: But then it-- in many ways it was-- I found it easier because-- I (STAMMER) find it’s much harder to figure out if your own ideas are good or not then it is to like decide of someone else’s ideas are good…

MIKE: You’re so--

MARK: …or not.

MIKE: By the way you’re so right.


MIKE: You’re so right, like I gotta tell you. So I have a book coming out December 29th called, “One Decision”. I’m gonna send you a decision box, I’m sending out…

MARK: Uh huh.

MIKE: …like a hundred of these boxes, right and there’s little stuff that relates to the book. I push myself never to copy like, ever.

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: Like to the point where like I drive myself crazy so a random stranger showing up in my house on Facebook to try out all the things I’m doing in the book, but like…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …just left to my own thinking and even doing that you’re like-- one sentence you can literally be like, is this true? Like…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …is this really true? Or is this because um, my parents got divorce and I’m a little like…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …bothered about it or (STAMMER) you know it’s-- it’s a--

MARK: And, and you go through this rollercoaster where it’s like when-- when you’re writing it, you’re like, “Man I am such a genius. I’m killing this…


MARK: …so hard.” And then you wake up the next day and you look at it and you’re like, “Oh my God, it’s terrible. Nobody is gonna read this, nobody’s gonna like this”, you know and then it’s two days later. You’re like, “No, no, no. This is really, really good.” You know and it’s just it-- it’s (STAMMER) it is an emotional rollercoaster.

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: And um, there’s a lot of insecurity involved so you can-- 'cause you don’t have that perspective but it-- with him, it was just like I basically just sat down and listen to him for 20 or 30 hours and I was like, “That’s gold, that’s gold; we’re gonna leave that out, but that’s-- that's great. We’ll keep that”, you know and so it was um, it was more (STAMMER) like I was a curator of his ideas…


MARK: …than anything.

MIKE: And so, you (STAMMER) get-- you work with him and you’re putting out that product together.


MIKE: And by the way, congrats that’s-- that's awesome when somebody seeks you out because they love your-- your style of writing.

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: What is your like ritual for writing-- meaning that the ritual could have absolutely no sense to it-- it at all, but like…


MIKE: …if you were to look back at like when you feel-- not (STAMMER) based upon what other people think, right?

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: But when you feel like when you’re on your greatest flow, like are you indoors, outdoors, at your computer like what is it?

MARK: For me it’s really uh, it’s-- it's locking yourself in a room and hoping for the best. (LAUGHTER) I once told a friend of mine, I said, “I-- the more I do this, the more I become convinced that there’s not really such thing as inspiration, there’s lack of distraction.” Um.


MARK: You know so for me, it’s-- I got all-- like social media and everything it’s-- it's all blocked on my computer, I don’t have access to it. Um, if I’m (STAMMER) working on a book or something I leave the phone outside the office and I basically just shut myself in for three or four hours at a time. And some days I sit there and agonize and stare at a screensaver and uh, you know wondering what I’m going with my life and you know some days you come in and it just pours out of you and um, what I found is that there’s often no-- there's rhyme or reason to it that I can figure out. All I know is that I just need to show up X-amount of days and it’ll eventually start happening. (INAUDIBLE)

MIKE: And do you play music?

MARK: Yeah, I listen to-- I listen to a lot of music when I--

MIKE: Is there certain types of music though where you’re like, “Oh I just need to put that track on again ‘cause that—


MIKE: (CHUCKLES) do you ever do that?

MARK: Yeah, I-- so I’m an upbeat music guy. I like uh, I like a lot of like intense electronic music. I like heavy metal and it kind of-- it gets me into a flow a little bit easier.


MARK: And if-- (STAMMER) I do find one track that I’m like really like ripen.

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: You know I’ll like put that track on repeat for like an hour or two. So yeah, music is very helpful.

MIKE: Yeah there’s a-- I had on a-- this podcast, I had this DJ who I love. He-- he honestly must of thought I was a little weird because I made videos dancing to his song, like-- I hit up his manager, right? And then-- his name is Lane 8 and he has this song called Sunday Song.

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: And during the pandemic Sunday Song it was like (STAMMER) I had a loving relationship with that where I was just creating all the time. But then when I had him on the podcast I kinda was like, “Oh, am I creeping this dude out?”


MIKE: Like, (STAMMER) ‘cause it was affect as such, that like, “Okay, you know?” But he’s a cool dude, but that (STAMMER) for me was definitely song of the summer. What (STAMMER) song right now are you like, if you’re few like-- artist wise are you kind of like loving to turn on?

MARK: We’re recording this right after Eddie Van Halen died.


MARK: Um, so I’ve been on this-- I (STAMMER) hadn’t listen to Van Halen in like 15 years, so I’m on this big Van Halen rabbit hole and I’m like-- (STAMMER) you know when I was young, I didn’t like the Sammy Hagar stuff and like now that I’m in my 30’s I’m like, “This is actually really good”, you know it’s like…

MIKE: Yeah.

MARK: …it’s like this is how you know you’re old is you start liking Sammy Hagar more than David Lee Roth, but um, yeah I (STAMMER) that-- when I do electronic music, I’m a big fan of Ajunabeats um, I—

MIKE: Who?

MARK: Anjunabeats, so they’re actually like kind of—

MIKE: How do you spell that?


MIKE: Oh yeah! They got all those tracks on Spotify-- all the mixes-- oh hell yeah!

MARK: They’re amazing.

MIKE: Those are great!

MARK: Yeah they’re amazing um, so like James Grant, Jodie Wisternoff. I think Lane 8 is on a bunch of ‘em.

MIKE: Yup.

MARK: Yeah they’re phenomenal.

MIKE: Let me ask you, did you-- when you were in high school did-- and you were in English class, did you get good grades?


MIKE: Like did you (STAMMER) kind of in the same style but it was just not graded well?

MARK: You know, it took me a long time to figure-- first of all, it took me a long time to figure out I was a good writer. Um, and in second it took me a long time to figure out the reason I got bad grades in school was because I didn’t follow the assignment. Uh…


MARK: …I (STAMMER) was coloring outside the box so to speak and um, that’s what I got knocked for, but you know being 15 or whatever I was just like, “Oh I suck at English.” (INAUDIBLE)  

MIKE: Got it.


MIKE: You weren’t like ah, wasn’t like-- when did you realize you were a good writer, when was the moment?

MARK: So I initially, I started blogging in 2008 and initially the-- you know-- so way back in the day, back in 2008 if you were trying to start an internet business or get traffic or whatever you know Facebook and Twitter-- it wasn’t what it is now. So the way you got traffic uh, was blogging ‘cause Google’s algorithm really liked blogs. So I was trying to start an e-commerce businesses and, and doing like affiliate marketing and selling teeth whiteners and shit. And um…

MIKE: Teeth pointers?

MARK: Teeth whiteners.

MIKE: Oh teeth whiteners.

MARK: Yeah, really exciting stuff and um, the way you would market a website or get traffic to your website back then was create a blog and write a bunch of little articles and it turned out that I was really good at that and, and I had one of my sites was uh, it was it was for like ah, dating advice and um, and that blog it started to develop a readership and I’d say by the time I was probably like—2011/2010/2011 um, I realized that I should just give up the whole e-commerce thing and just (STAMMER) blog. And I thing that was kind of the moment where I realized that you and people started emailing me saying you should write a book, I would totally buy your book. You’re the only blogger I read every day, blah, blah, blah and I was like, “Really? Me? Holy crap. All right.”

MIKE: How did you monetize a blog?

MARK: So back in those days you would, you would do like ebooks, like little-- peep--


MARK: Fifty page PDF’s um, so you would come up with a bunch of little topics. Sell these PDF’s like $5.99 or $9.99 um, you know make-- sell a few hundred of those each month and it’s enough to pay your rent, whatnot.

MIKE: Got it, do you ever have interest in working with people one-on-one in a like coaching sense? Or do you rather not be in that flow?

MARK: So I-- I worked with people one-on-one for about five years.

MIKE: Oh wow, okay.

MARK: Yeah, uh--

MIKE: I didn’t know that.

MARK: Yeah, most people don’t actually. Um, I stopped in-- I actually stopped right around the time I got my book deal. Um, I was like, “Got a book deal, don’t need to do this anymore”.


MARK: It, it was um-- I liked it, I didn’t love it. I love the writing. I love the writing process, love the you know, everything about it. I liked the coaching, I didn’t love it and--

MIKE: When (STAMMER) let me ask you (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but when you were coaching people, right? So I’ve been doing it for ever, right?

MARK: Sure.

MIKE: (CHUCKLES) So I’m just curious, because it really it’s like if you’re not in your art of it, but you’re doing it…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …was there any moment with certain clients were you were just like, “What the hell am I doing?, and “Why am I doing this?”

MARK: Oh, come on everybody's got those clients.


MARK: I know you know that. That’s why you’re asking.

MIKE: (STAMMER) can you share anything that’s not.

MARK: You know, I-- I can’t think of I-- I vaguely remember a couple of clients that just you know it was like banging my head against the wall um, I can’t remember anything specific that they used to say or do, but-- but you know the thing about coaching is it’s you know-- there's a lot-- one of my biggest epiphanies back when I used to coach was somebody told me like a, a much more experienced coach than I was. He told me-- he’s like, “You know you can fire your clients, right?” (LAUGHTER)

MIKE: Mm hm.

MARK: To me it was like a head explode, “Oh my God”, you know because it was just some people, it took me a long time to figure out that-- that uh, sometimes there’s just not chemistry. It’s just that you and them, they see the world differently it’s not the right fit whatever, and that-- it's nobody’s fault. It’s fine, but um, sometimes too I found that people some—sought out a coach. As kind of another form of avoidance you know it was...


MARK: …it was a way to tell themselves like well I’m talking to the guy an hour every week and he’s telling me what to do and so it’s kind of like alleviated that responsibility for them actually changing or-- or taking on new behaviors you know in their mind. Um, and those were the worst clients because it’s-- they're not coming to you for help, they’re coming to you for validation and…


MARK: And I think it was right around the time I kind of figured that out and started weeding those clients out of-- of my practice that the blog took off, the book deal came, and I was like, you know I don’t have to do this, um, so I’m just gonna let it (INAUDIBLE)

MIKE: And what was your style like-- what was the-- when you feel like the type of person though? ‘Cause anyone who does something for five years has to have certain arenas where like…

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: …they were like, oh yeah. I’m-- because I’m sure you made some magic happen with people too, so it’s like-- it’s not all you know um, but where-- what type of person do you feel like when you were like, yeah like-- this type of person is right up my alley and.

MARK: Yeah, yeah my wheelhouse. Um, so my wheelhouse was the-- I would-- I would say it as the overachieving single 30-year-old male. Um, basically it was usually guys who-- you know they were nerds in school um, very smart, very successful, you know they went to law school or medical school or whatever like they worked their asses off and suddenly they wake up one day and they’re 30 and they got all of these degrees and they’re making a bunch of money like wait, I don’t have a life. (CHUCKLES) You know like, “I don’t have a life, I don’t have a girlfriend, I don’t like have any hobbies, I don’t many friends like, what am I doing wrong?” You know…


MARK: …those were kind of like my bread and butter guys and, and I really enjoyed those guys because they knew how to-- they knew how to push themselves and put the work in. They—you know they-- they just needed (STAMMER) somebody to kind of like draw the map for them you know.

MIKE: They needed someone to help them guide them towards what they wanted because their actions weren’t lining up with what they actually wanted maybe.

MARK: Exactly, exactly.

MIKE: I got ‘cha.

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: All right well, you guys uh, you got to go to his website, “MARKMANSON.NET”. You got to buy all the F*cked books.


MIKE: And he also had a book called, “Models” was it? Right?

MARK: Yup.

MIKE: Back in the day that was your first you know, kind of dance in the publishing world, right?

MARK: It was self-published, so yeah.

MIKE: Self-published!

MARK: Yeah.

MIKE: So-- and that’s about women and dating, and wha--

MARK: It’s-- it's called “Models: Attract Women Through Honesty”, and um, it was written because-- you know and this is why the 30-year-old overachiever guys tend to be my wheelhouse ‘cause that’s how they found me. Um, but it’s at the time, most of the men dating advice out there was very sleazy and manipulative and like, pick up lines and stuff like that, and so I thought he world needed-- I thought the men of the world and the women of the world deserved a book. (LAUGHTER) That wasn’t-- that wasn’t sleazy like gave like emotionally healthy advice to men of like how to go about their dating lives.

MIKE: Yeah ‘cause-- by the way it’s so true that so many men start off not being totally honest and then they end up in a spot where they feel like they can’t say what they really mean or-- or feel and then all of a sudden they’re feeling inauthentic and friction happens and whatever so this is just a book that really helps people understand the necessity of just being honest in a relationship, right?

MARK: Absolutely.

MIKE: And uh, so everyone check out “MARKMANSON.NET”. it’s been a total pleasure having you on “Always Evolving” and uh, you are inspiring to me! The word I used it, inspiring.


MIKE: I’m slightly jealous because he’s crushing it in this world, but uh-- but thanks man for coming on Mark.

MARK: I appreciate this man, this-- it was fun.

MIKE: …All right everyone, thank you for listening to “Always Evolving” and make sure to join my free empowerment group every Tuesday, five p.m. Pacific Time. You just go to “COACHMIKEBAYER.COM”, add your email, and you will be part of a very cool community of people. It’s free, not upselling, not charging, anything like that. Yeah, I appreciate it if you could subscribe to this podcast and also rate it. It’s really hard to get some of you guys to rate this podcast uh, and I really appreciate it. It helps with the algorithm, so that this thing pops up more on Apple. That’s my request to you all that’s are listening but regardless thank you and remember to keep it magical. Bye.

MIKE: The “Always Evolving” with Coach Mike Bayer Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended as a replacement or substitution for any professional medical, financial, or other advice diagnosis or treatment. This podcast is not constitute the practices in medicine or any other professional service. The use of any information provided during this podcast at the listeners’ own risk. For medical or other advice appropriate to your specific situation, please consult a physician or other trained professionals.